Question: Are you Pro-American?

So as expected after Medelci’s last visit to Washington, Hillary Clinton took a short trip to North Africa and spent some time in Algeria. While in Algiers, she encouraged the ruling system to make more reforms and declared that North African people deserve to decide for themselves. And taking the opportunity of this visit, the US embassy in Algiers invited some Algerians, considered as representatives of the civil society, to be present during state secretary’s speech. American administration’s interest in youths and civil societies has increased especially since the Arab Spring. A year ago, Clinton discussed through video conference with civil society representatives from 20 countries; and her special advisor for global youth issues, Ronan Farrow, visited Algerian computer sciences school, chatted with its students and had lunch with some youths. To the press, he explained his country’s interest in the world’s youths and made more important announcements.

An Algerian blogger, who thought she’d be among the civil society representatives, wrote about the event to share her ‘sadness’ for not having been invited. A funny reaction but nothing more. A more ‘interesting’ reaction was made by another Algerian blogger who was among the guests but didn’t take the below group picture with Hillary Clinton. In his post, he wrote that those young men and women were not civil society representatives but rather Pro-American civil society representatives.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton meets with members of Algeria’s civil society before a roundtable meeting at the U.S. Embassy in Algiers February 25, 2012. REUTERS/Jason Reed

But what is a Pro-American person?

The blogger says those people were businessmen, lawyers, youths supported by MEPI and a representative of Mozilla Algeria community. Let me tell you that I do not believe these descriptions are a proof of being Pro- or Anti-American. Is anyone who studies(d) in the US, or lives there a Pro-American? Are we Pro-American because this blog is written in English? Obviously not.

A Pro-American person is someone who supports the US and its policies. Some say such a person also supports the American culture and its people. Both definitions make sense but I prefer to stick to the former. There is this Algeria-born (but not bred) man who owns a blog (all blogs mentioned here are anonymous :)) and he describes his blog as “the first Pro-American blog in Arabic”. He says something like being a hardcore fan of the US, being a proud Pro-American, and working on fighting hate against the US in the Middle-East.

Two points sound strange here. I cannot understand how one can take pride in being Pro-American or Pro-any_state for the matter. A second point is, being Pro-American is not something we hear often in Algeria or from Algerians. The blogger being bred elsewhere might be the explanation. It is not important anyways.

It is admitted that Britain is Pro-American and that even France became more Pro-American since Sarkozy took office. I am talking about states here as the people do not necessarily share their state’s stance. This article tells us that some African countries are among the most Pro-American ones. But what about Algeria?

As I said above, the question may look odd to us. Whether it is on the state or the people levels, we are more used to accusing people of being Pro-France. Hizb Fransa, in all its aspects (the secularists, the DAFs, etc.), is what we know in our part of the world. So being Pro-American, relating oneself to Uncle Sam is relatively new. We of course have Chekib Khelil who’s been accused several times of caring more of the US interests because of his US citizenship, but I couldn’t think of somebody else.
Also, Algerians are rather Anti-American. Not as in Algerians hate the US but more as in Algerians disapprove of US international politics especially in the Middle-East.

My question is, what would happen if we start thinking of some Algerians as Pro-American? What would it mean to question Algeria and Algerians’ position versus American politics? I mean questioning it seriously. Would it not mean that there’s a shift in the way we look at the world and the weight European countries, and France more specifically, compared to the rest of the world have in our lives?

I know this post doesn’t say much on the topic. It’s just a question I asked myself after I read the blog entries I mentioned above. This link gives a list of the most Pro-American movies. I have watched only 3 of them so it looks likes I am not Pro-American.

Update: Please take some time to answer this poll. Multiple choices allowed.


75 thoughts on “Question: Are you Pro-American?

  1. Je n’ai vu aucun de ces films, que suis-je?
    Sinon, ya Mnarvi, donnes-nous les liens des blogs s’il te plait, ça m’intéresserait de lire des algériens fiers d’être pro-américains 🙂
    J’ai par contre lu l’analyse de Mounadil au sujet de la visite de la Clinton chez nous
    Et BTW, le lien de la photo groupée ne s’ouvre pas :-/

    N.B : tu noteras que j’ai fait un commentaire “réclamation”, inch’Allah je ferai un commentaire plus approprié après avoir parcouru les blogs en question 😉

    • Oumelkheir,

      La photo a en effet disparu… C’est curieux. Mais j’en ai trouve une autre et edite mon post. Pour les blogs, je me doutais que certains lecteurs voudraient avoir des noms 🙂 Je donnerai les liens ce soir.

      Merci pour lien vers le post de Mounadil. Il ecrit trop souvent pour que je puisse suivre tous ses posts. Un pro-American connu et reconnu, n’est-ce pas? 🙂 Parler d’un axe Washington/Alger est une maniere de se donner de l’importance. J’en ai parle ici il y a quelque temps.

  2. Well, I am pro-American. Or rather I became so the more I realized how my idealism is foolish and saw that everywhere is as corrupt as the US but at least the US values freedom enough to let constructive dissent emerge and even sometimes have the last word!

    Much to admire about the US, despite their pitfalls. And that silly argument “All the US care about is their interests!” – no comment, as if there is anybody in this World to which this doesn’t apply!

    Glad the US is at last taking an interest in our part of the World, hopefully this will have a positive impact but of course it will depend on the people’s readiness to take advantage of opportunities which I doubt they will and the whole thing might well backfire.

    Anyhow, for your question, I think Algerians are in general anti US mainly because of the Palestinian struggle and also because of their cultural aversion of ‘foreign intervention’.

    As to how anyone could be proud of being Pro-(a country or state), well easy peasy, being pro something means supporting the values that are expressed by that country or state and which motivate their foreign policy or policies in general. As nobody is perfect, it becomes an exercise of comparing different countries and taking pride in supporting the least bad of the lot. And the US comes out quite well in this regard, all things considered.

    • I think QatKhal’s got a point when he said it’s not easy to decide whether to be pro or anti-US. The values you seem to admire in the US might be all good but I do not think they try to implement them outside the US. Perhaps, as you said below, they do believe in their BS and do really want the world to live like them, but they have no problem in going against these same values, outside the US, when they think implementing them could jeopardize their own interest. Then it is a matter of weighing the pros and the cons and deciding on the whole.

      This point is directly linked to what an American interest in our country would mean for us. Clinton told those young people to vote because it was the only way to change the system. She also declared the Moroccan pseudo reforms were great and wonderful. I cannot see how this could be good news. Well… it is good news for Bouteflika and co.

      And since Algerians do not seem able to be pro-themselves perhaps it is good to have pro-Americans at home to balance the pro-France. I see the UK ambassador made a public declaration yesterday to cancel a little the coverage around the US in Algeria. So having pro-UK people would be good too.
      I think I am going to be pro-ElMouradia, just like Ghoulamallah here

      • MnarviDZ

        I agree, anything which lessens the pro-French grip on our society and culture is good. Algerians are quite late wrt to the rest of the Maghreb in terms of being open to the World. They are still too dependent on the French language (and therefore culture and way of looking to the World) or the Arabic language (and therefore the cultural onslaught of Al Saud). I think an American influence in this sense would be a good thing. If we can’t decide for ourselves, then the least bad option is to have many alternatives represented and hope that it will result in some overall balanced view of the World and what our place in it should be.

        As on the political front, well I don’t expect anything from the US because I know they value their interest above all else, this is a founding principle of their culture and philosophy. But they also tend to expect others to be the same, and so in their belief, given that everyone is pursuing their interests, the end result should be beneficial for all parties concerned. Which is true except that everyone has their own way of interpreting self interest. It is far from being as rational as it was portrayed by the thinkers who have devised this philosophy. But that is not the main problem, the problem is not everyone is pursuing their interest, far too many just want to be told where their interest is.

  3. I am anti-American, and proud to be. I don’t like the culture and don’t like their politics not just in ME but even in South America. In fact, I refuse to eat food that comes from the US, and never step into a US restaurant chain.
    I don’t understand you Algerianna when you say that it is a good thing that the US is paying attention to our region. The US has been paying a lot of attention to the Gulf countries for a long time, and look at the result!
    I have watched two of the movies in the list: Pursuit of happyness and Charlie Wilson’s war. I did no feel any pro-Americanism in the former but the latter was another: Americans care about the world and do anything to save it (yeah right!).
    P.S: would like to read the blogs you refer to above.

      • Interesting blog that pro-American Algerian has! Horrible colours though, could not read it, my eyes were hurting. I am not surprised; he was brought up in Dubai! We have a new generation of Algerians brought up in the Gulf who adore everything American, and the food as well!!! They are just like khalijis without the dichdach.

        • Tout à fait 🙂
          Seulement moi, j’ai beaucoup aimé sa prétention “the first blog pro-american in arabic”…. chkoun qallou qu’il était le premier? Mais il y’en a plein….

    • Pandora

      I said it’s a good thing because it fills me with a sort of sadistic pleasure to see our rulers on their toes, bending backwards to please Uncle Sam. Only a bully can deal with bullies. And I prefer the US bully a thousand times to our local, made in France bullies. Why? Because I hate them too much, I hate what they have done to this country. All the supposedly bad things the US has done do not touch me as deeply as what has been done to my country at the hands of those criminals.

      As for what happened in the Gulf, why blame the US? Much of it is the Arabs’ fault! Yes the US foreign policy has caused many problems, but most of the countries which have suffered have come out of it stronger, at least the ones who have learnt how to make the most of it and the US didn’t prevent them did they? Look at the Asian tigers, they have learnt from the disasters of the past and the US wasn’t there to force them to remain stupid. And look at Israel for God’s sake! I mean, just how many Jews are there in the World in total? And look what they have done! Despite all the anti Semitism.

      I think there are many lessons there to learn and am OK with criticizing, but let us be fair at least and state the positive as well as the negative.

      • I am not saying that nothing good came out of the US, it is just that bad has eclipsed the good. Most of the good stuffs that the US gave to the world are not controlled by politicians. This is why the world could benefit from them. Liking certain things about the US does not make one a pro-American.
        Greed and over-consumerism are also products that the US has managed to sell to the world, and I don’t like it. I don’t like the savage capitalism; you just have to flick through American channels to encounter advertising on a mind boggling scale. You cannot even find international TV channels in hotels to escape this. It is a whole lot of things that I do not like about the US, and I am not even going to talk about politics.
        You are right when you say that Arabs are to blame, we are all to blame for the failures of our countries, but the US has always been there to make things worse.
        Yu made me laugh when you compared us to the Asian Tigers?!! Raki ca va? Wash jab al jab. Choufilna kach nas kima h’na… bessah makayen h’ta wahed kima h’na!!

      • “All the supposedly bad things the US has done do not touch me as deeply as what has been done to my country at the hands of those criminals.”
        Mazal, tu n’as encore rien vu Algerianna… nous ne sommes encore qu’au début malheureusement….

        “Yes the US foreign policy has caused many problems, but most of the countries which have suffered have come out of it stronger”… De quels pays tu parles? L’Afghanistan? L’Iraq? Le conflit “confessionnel” y fait des ravages. La Syrie est en cours d’y être entrainée… à plus grande échelle, c’est tout le “monde musulman” qui est en cours d’y être entrainé… Allah yestour….

        Cela ne signifie en aucun cas, que les dirigeants arabes ne sont pas à incriminer dans cette Histoire, mais toi tu es en train d’innocenter un coupable pour en accuser uniquement un autre, qui est tout aussi coupable. Et pour être “justes” il ne faut pas qu’on soit aveuglés par la haine (selon ton aveu). L’analyse objective ou équitable, nécessite qu’on doive obligatoirement se débarrasser de tout “sentiment” surtout de haine….
        “O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. for Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do”. Sourate Al Maïda, verset 8.

  4. Mnarvi, je n’ai pas pu attendre ta réponse… trop curieuse, j’ai été vite faire ma recherche 🙂
    Recherche fructueuse…. je peux poster les liens?
    Alors, d’abord, je ne voyais pas la photo de ton post (maintenant je la vois) alors j’ai cherché et je l’ai trouvée mais sous un autre angle ici
    L’article se demande pourquoi “on” cache la société civile à Clinton? et un commentaire aussi se demande que fait une certaine K.B la-bas?
    Mais la K.B en question est bien à sa place
    Ce qui prouve bien qu’au moins une personne parmi cette “honorable assistance” est effectivement “pro” américaine et dans le vrai sens du terme.
    Il n’y a qu’à voir le structure de ce-dit MEPI
    Les noms des autres participants (pas tous malheureusement) est disponible ici
    Chacun d’eux est “googlable”….
    Je ne pense pas, que l’ambassade ait fait un choix aléatoire, ni que Clinton doive faire ses choix elle-même. Elle vient (il y a une équipe qui travaille derrière) il faut qu’elle rencontre quelques “jeunes” de la société civile, on lui présente ceux qu’elle doit voir, “encourager” et qui seront heureux d’être sur la photo. Ce qu’elle leur dit, n’est pas très important, quelques mots suffisent, le reste est expliqué en long et en large préalablement et par la suite….
    Etre pro-americain, ce n’est pas étudier aux Etats-Unis, ni parler anglais/americain… mais bien s’aligner sur la politique américaine (extérieure, chez eux iddebrou rasshoum), l’adopter, en être fier et mieux encore, travailler pour elle… plus pro-américain que ça?

    • Je ne pense pas, que l’ambassade ait fait un choix aléatoire

      Bien entendu. Dans cet article de Liberte, il est dit ceci “Les Américains ont, donc, choisi de dialoguer avec “la jeunesse utile”, pas celle qui a fait le déplacement à Omdurman, ou celle qui tient, à longueur de journée, les murs ou tente une harga.” El mouhtarem avait raison de dire que ces personnes ne representaient pas la societe civile algerienne. Je suis d’accord avec lui, et aujourd’hui je ne crois pas qu’il y ait des representants d’une quelconque societe civile algerienne. Et j’exagere a peine. Mais les taxer tous de pro-americanisme n’etait pas raisonnable. Je pense que ces braves personnes ne representent qu’elles-memes, mais de par leurs activites, positions et parcours, ils pourraient devenir des outils vecteurs interessants de la politique americaine. Mais on ne vas pas leur faire un proces d’intention ici et aujourd’hui…

      • Je suis d’accord avec toi (et avec El Mouhtarem) ces personnes ne représentent pas la société civile…. et je suis aussi d’accord avec toi : ” les taxer tous de pro-americanisme n’etait pas raisonnable. Je pense que ces braves personnes ne representent qu’elles-memes”. Sauf pour certaines qui le sont effectivement 🙂
        Mais la question d’El Mouhtarem était : pourquoi cache-t-on la société civile algérienne à Hillary Clinton? La réponse était qu’à mon avis, on ne la lui cache pas mais qui a dit qu’elle voulait la voir?

    • J’allais répondre à ton commentaire plus haut… mais puisque tu es là :-)))
      Je suis certainement contre la politique américaine et de toutes mes forces. Comment le pourrais-je?
      Toi tu dis que les anti-américains ont comme argument “que les américains ne cherchent que leurs intérêts”. Non. Ce n’est pas mon argument. Tout le monde sait que chacun (en politique, ou surtout en politique étrangère tout le monde cherche ses intérêts). Les américains travaillent pour leurs propres intérêts, mais en même temps, ils nous gavent de beaux discours humanistes…. ils donnent de l’argent à X et à Y. Ils arment X contre Y et Y contre X… leurs intérêts s’opposent aux miens? Soit, alors ce sera la mort et la destruction….c’est ça la politique américaine à laquelle je ne peux que m’opposer…. selon Clinton, les Etats-Unis s’intéressent à l’Algérie….ça ne t’inquiète pas toi?

      • What I like about the US is that they don’t only bullshit, they ACT on their bullshit! This is not hypocrisy, Europe is hypocritical, the US are not, they act on their beliefs and it happens that they believe that what’s in the interest of the US is, ultimately, in the interest of the entire Planet LOL

        The US were founded on free enterprise and free market capitalism, they are very influenced by Ayn Rand’s philosophy and yet they have kept the missionary mindset of Christianity. They act according to their beliefs and being a super power means you have to make a lot of unpopular and tough decisions.

        I am glad the US won the cold war. Had it been the USSR, who knows what the World would be like today. You might not like what it has come to, but just try and imagine how worse it could have turned out!

        Re: your last question – Why would it worry me that the US are taking an interest in Algeria? I am more worried about the insane self-proclaimed “Algerian” bandits who have been sucking the blood of Algerians and milking the Algerian cow for half a century! Que sera sera is my moto!

        • Selon toi, être anti-US devrait signifier être Pro-(ex) URSS? S’inquiéter de l’intérêt que nous porterait les américains (c’est ce qu’ils disent aujourd’hui, mais ça ne date pas d’hier) ne signifie pas non plus être satisfait de ce qui se passe chez nous. Mais wach dekhel el maricane? Question bête je sais…
          “being a super power means you have to make a lot of unpopular and tough decisions”… il s’agit surtout de décisions dans des affaires qui ne devraient pas les concerner, mais surtout parce qu’ils disent ce qu’ils ne font pas. Sous couvert de “démocratiser” le monde (même par la force) ils tuent, ils pillent, ils violent… plus hypocrites…..
          Ceci dit, j’en veux aussi aux dirigeants ou aux politiciens ou aux journalistes, qui sont encore là à dire : on attend que les américains remplissent leurs engagements… on attend que les américains prennent leurs responsabilités…. on attend que les américains jouent pleinement leur rôle… ou pèsent de leur poids… pour régler tel ou tel conflit. Surtout lorsqu’il s’agit par exemple de la “question palestinienne”. Pfffffffffffff….

  5. ManrviDZ

    I suggest you add a poll to your post with the following options:

    I am pro-US
    I am anti-US
    I am anti-anti-US
    I am pro-pro-US
    I am pro-anti-US
    I am anti-pro-US
    I prefer to remain on the fence
    I don’t really care as long as I have my Coke and Big Mac

  6. First, It is a pity that the algerian government is now seeking its legitimacy in the white house corridors… It’s a pity that the secretary of state of USA gives openly lessons to our old, sick, illegitimate and consenting politicians… It’s a pity that they listen to her silently like bad students. This is not about being anti or pro-american, it is about simply knowing for what the government of Algeria exist and who the government of Algreia address in priority…

    Now as an individual, the question of being pro or anti-american is not easy to answer. I am running currently a blog like you, and as you know it uses Internet, computers and software… All this stuff is a product of America… some will tell you, that’s just technology… Too simplistic ! Everything is a social product and carries a philosphical concept that speaks for the society that has produced it more than any discourse… Running a blog, even for saying : Death to the grand Satan is a way of singing an ode to the american spirit… This is just as an example to show that the question is not easy to answer… but there are many examples like that. Speaking only of the death of Steve Jobs which was a symbol of America and its impact that it had on the social networks even with the hardest opponents to America, would require pages… I am very pro-american in that sense.

    BUT America is today’s empire. It is acting like the very powerful empire it is. Invading, dictating policies and changing governments according to its interests and the interests of the west in general. Today, empires does no more conquer new territories but new markets and new sources of energy and materials… but they use exactly the same pattern as their predecessors… Launch an army of soldiers or diplomats carrying an acceptable flag … (yesterday as we know the best, it was Islam in our fallen empires… elsewhere Christianity … today it’s freedom and democracy) and spread it accross the world. Of course, it is not for gaining new territories or more influence… no, no, no… it’s for the sake of principles… So from that side : Rien de nouveau sous le soleil.
    What is new, is that humanism has gained minds especillay in the western societies making for example the solution that they have the power to carry out : to wipe out the palestinian problem by wiping out physically and completely the palestinians, impossible.

    The interests of America and ours especially in Palestine are opposite, in that sense, I am anti-american but I believe that a way to overcome this problem is by supporting those who claim that american interests are jeopardized by their blind support to Israel

    In my opinion, there is a worst way of being pro-american, it is the the algerian government way and the way of those who want to be side by side with Clinton on a photo. There is also a worst way of being anti-american, it is when this feeling stems from the jealousy of success and the bitterness of those who live in the nostalgia of their own lost empire…

  7. Oumelkheir

    Selon toi, être anti-US devrait signifier être Pro-(ex) URSS?

    If you know of another power than these two then please let me know! Europe is no more than a cynical faithless heap that only believes in disbelief – a tired old dog. There aren’t many many serious contenders are there and despite all the imperfections, the US is the least bad of the lot. I have no more desire to fantasize and dream about some ideal system which has never and will never exist, so I suppose to be more accurate I would say I am anti-anti-US, because am aware that in our part of the World, those who use the ‘anti-US’ story and all the too-familiar arguments that go with it are those who want to defend the status quo without offering viable alternatives. As far as I can make out, the only initiatives for change and learning from past mistakes tend to come from….the US!

    Mais wach dekhel el maricane?

    Kifah hada wesh dekhal el marikan assi? They seek to further their political agenda and fulfill their ambitions, emmala superpower bel haff? Internal security is also a bit factor in shaping US foreign policy. Wesh t’habbi Oumelkheir, the World has become too inter-connected and that is good but it also has many risks. Only the US is taking this fact seriously and working towards more collaboration. This is why they do not like Iran.

  8. En fait moi, je ne parle que d’un point de vue strictement “personnel”. C’est a dire que je suis anti-US personnellement et individuellement… c’est pour ça que je ne suis pas non plus Pro- (ex) URSS ou actuelle Russie… je ne suis ni pour l’un ni pour l’autre… et je ne parle que de moi. Sinon, au niveau politique, ou au niveau de la politique des Etats, hadik hadja wahdoukhra…. c’est tout un programme….
    Mais qu’ils soient les plus forts, les plus riches, les plus ma 3labalich wachen… n’implique pas qu’on doive être d’accord. Qu’ils essaient de faire la pluie et le beau temps, si seulement ils pouvaient…. ça les regarde. ça ne m’oblige en rien…. Bien sur, je dois en même temps agir pour ne pas me laisser imposer leur politique, mais machi qoulna hadik hadja wahdoukhra?
    Pour résumer, je viens de me souvenir d’une expression qui résumerait en fait la politique étrangère américaine, et pourquoi je ne peux en aucun cas l’accepter. C’est le pompier pyromane. Voilà ce que sont les américains dans le monde.
    Et en même temps et à ce propos, je me suis souvenue aussi (merci google 😉 d’un film américain), que j’ai vu il ya bieeeeen longtemps (il date des années 90 :-))) c’est Backdraft.

  9. “All this stuff is a product of America”
    Not only America… c’est le résultat de siècles (sinon de millénaires) de recherche scientifique. Que serait l’ordinateur sans le système binaire hein? Où étaient les Etats-Unis quand l’Humanité développait les mathématiques, les chiffres, et les nombres? Et en même temps, les américains ne sont pas les seuls à maitriser la technologie…. seulement, eux, ils savent faire du cinéma autour de leurs produits, avec la main sur le cœur et sortez les violons….

    • Où étaient les Etats-Unis quand l’Humanité développait les mathématiques, les chiffres, et les nombres?

      C’est vrai… lorsqu’on est un tant soit peu objectif et pétri de bonne foi, ce questionnement vient immédiatement à l’esprit. On peut même aller plus loin. Où étaient-ils lorsque l’Humanité se mettait à l’agriculture ? Où étaient-ils lorsque l’Humanité façonnait le bronze ? Où étaient-il lorsque l’Humanité domestiquait le feu ? Où étaient-ils lorsque l’Humanité adoptait la station debout ? Que de la gueule ces américains. Ils n’étaient même pas au grand rendez-vous qui ont transformé l’Humanité…

      seulement, eux, ils savent faire du cinéma autour de leurs produits, avec la main sur le cœur et sortez les violons

      Encore une remarque de bien bonne foi… Moi je suggère que nos grands savants les imitent et adoptent leur plan marketing pour placer les produits révolutionnaires que nous développons depuis un millénaire dans l’indifférence la plus totale de l’Humanité faute de cinéma suffisant… 1) Lancement d’une rumeur sur les réseaux sociaux : Chut, bientôt la sortie de I3jaz 3.0 ou ftwa v6 incluant une représentation binaire du monde… 2) deuxième rumeur : paraît que le système binaire s’appelle ljz avec deux états extrêmes Yajouz et LaYajouz qui codent l’univers entier… 3) Retard volontaire dans la sortie pour bien faire saliver

      Et enfin… un grand show avec les deux mains jointes sur le ventre et sortez lbendir… Nous ferons un tabac.

  10. The views of this post have gone through the roof according to my blog stats. Eeeeh assi, les américains eykhedmou f l’enquete ta3’hom sur. Ghadi eygabdho etthaqafa bah eykhedmou foreign policy ta3hom bel bien. Weshkoun 3aref yal khawa, balek la prochaine fois yinvitiwni ana w MnarviDz el l’ambassade des etats unis, yehasbouna société civile taa dzayer, wa roubbama akthar! lol

  11. للإجابة على السعال المطروح …
    في سنوات الإرهاب …
    قالك في واحد فو براج جماعة باللحية حبسوا bus و نزلوا واحد رايحين يدبحوه.
    قالولو “أنت مع من؟ معنا ولا مع لوخرين؟”
    قالهم أنا معاكم. مالا قالولو “هنا هما لوخرين” …و دبحوه…
    ملاحظة: كان من المفروض انو يقلهم “شكون نتومة سع ” ولا يقلهم ” يلا عودتو نتوم هما نتومة أنا معكم و لا عدتو نتومة هما لوخرين أنا مع لوخرين”

    In this post, are you speaking about americans as Chakib Khelil, for example? coz the answer to your question may change radically

    PS: About the last post on Rojla! when Andrew Warren commits his famous “double attack” in Algiers, have not seen Errojla we Ennif we anti US etc.

    • LOL The Matrix, ya3ni you won’t answer 🙂

      As to Warren, I remember Zerhouni had said it was all ok to not display our nif and rodjla for many reasons: They had double citizenships, perhaps they were spying on us, they didn’t complain to DZ justice, etc. And, did great US not judge and condemn him?!

  12. @ Algerianna (je réponds ici à ton commentaire plus haut).
    Tu as dit : “Internal security is also a bit factor in shaping US foreign policy. Wesh t’habbi Oumelkheir, the World has become too inter-connected and that is good but it also has many risks. Only the US is taking this fact seriously and working towards more collaboration”.
    Tu sais, je n’ai pas voulu rentrer dans les détails parce qu’en fait ce post, et la question posée par Mnarvi implique que je doive écrire plus sérieusement (plus longuement) que ça. Et en fait c’était pratiquement le sujet principal de mes chroniques (et de mon blog) quand tout est parti avec la guerre contre l’Irak en 2003.
    Mais hier, j’ai lu une phrase dans un article et elle constitue (à moindre frais pour moi 😉 une réponse à ton affirmation :
    “Aujourd’hui, explique le ministre Di Paola, « la défense de l’Italie et des Italiens ne se fait pas seulement et pas tellement sur les frontières, mais plutôt à distance, là où naissent et se nourrissent les menaces ». Il faut alors un ajournement de l’article 52 de la Constitution, pour préciser qu’il est du devoir sacré du citoyen de défendre la Patrie « à distance »”.

    N’est-ce pas magnifique? “là où naissent et se nourrissent les menaces”. La défense d’un pays ne doit plus se faire sur ou bien à ses frontières mais au-delà…. là où ce pays pourrait se sentir menacé. Mais, ils ne disent pas que cette menace c’est bien “eux” qui la nourrissent, c’est bien “eux” qui lui ont donné naissance… ya3ni loukan bark ma yetmessekhrouch bina….
    Un jour et à ce sujet j’avais écrit au sujet de la Barbarie de ces pays dits “civilisés” : “Il fut un temps béni (oui oui béni) où les barbares malgré leur sauvagerie, malgré toute leur cruauté, avaient la décence de ne pas insulter l’intelligence des autres. Leurs hordes s’abattaient sur les villes et les villages, massacrant, pillant, violant, rasant tout sur leur passage, sans discours aucun. Ils ne se souciaient pas de leur “image” bien au contraire… terroriser les populations leur facilitait la tache en annihilant toute résistance.
    Ils n’auraient jamais pu feindre la douceur ou l’humanité comme osent le faire, toute honte bue, les barbares d’aujourd’hui…”.
    La suite, et le commentaire “plus approprié” dont je parlais hier doit donc logiqiuement suivre 🙂

    • Oumelkhir

      Sorry but worrying about one’s image for me is the minimum in social intelligence, it denotes a desire and willingness to compromise, live with others who may be different, a cultural sensitivity. This is why barbarians are barbarians and the US are not. So I think you miss the point about barbarians. I know you don’t like it, but the US are the least bad, by a mile from all the ‘terrorists’ that populate the international arena and just as the US do, resort to all sorts of tricks to ‘insult the intelligence’ of the people. Of course assuming the people are intelligent in the first place, which is debatable…

      Like Qatkhal said, much of the criticism directed towards the US is fuelled by resentment and jealousy. I don’t know how you prefer a superpower the size and weight of the US international affairs to behave and be, or on what principles, but if it is like you say in your post, destroying silently and not even bothering to use human intelligence to make it look like it is for a higher more noble purpose (which in itself requires some effort to think and compare and capitalize on human experience) then I prefer the US brand of ‘terrorism’. The central message is at least not nihilist, like the one we are only too familiar with…

      • “then I prefer the US brand of ‘terrorism’”
        Mais le terrorisme a le même objectif, quelque soit le label, le résultat est le même : mort et destruction…. je n’ai pas à choisir entre les terrorismes, tous pour moi sont à combattre.

        “Sorry but worrying about one’s image for me is the minimum in social intelligence, it denotes a desire and willingness to compromise, live with others who may be different, a cultural sensitivity. This is why barbarians are barbarians and the US are not”.
        Awalan, les “Barbares” ont été surnommés ainsi par leurs ennemis, qui pratiquaient tout autant la Barbarie qu’eux. Mais les-dits Barbares ne nous ont rien transmis (d’écrit) donc, on ne sait pas comment ils désignaient leurs ennemis, mais certainement pas par des mots gentils, il faut bien l’imaginer… en même temps, ces mêmes Barbares avaient aussi une vie, des familles et aimaient leurs enfants (tu te souviens de la chanson de Sting 😉
        Thaniyan, si tu me dis que les américains ne “sont pas des barbares”, yakhti ana h’na ma 3andi manzid….

      • much of the criticism directed towards the US is fuelled by resentment and jealousy.

        Debating on “What do you think of America?” is like debating on religion. To understand some positions, you need more to rely on psychology than on facts or rational arguments…
        I am talking about both sides, deep resentment and excessive fascination… but the negative part, resentment, may take an obsessive form…

      • Sorry Algerianna, but how can an individual be jealous of a nation, a principle, or a policy? Individuals are only jealous of their counterparts. An average Mo or Jo can never be jealous of a politician, a president or even a celebrity. But, he can indeed be jealous of a co-worker or a neighbour.

  13. Et logiquement donc, et parce qu’ils se soucient de leur “image”, mais surtout de ces soi-disant “valeurs” auxquelles ils disent croire, et parce qu’ils doivent (za3ma) rendre des comptes à leurs électeurs, et parce que la guerre “armée” coute quand même cher… les barbares d’aujourd’hui ont adopté une nouvelle tactique ou politique : la smart power ou soft power. En quoi consiste-t-elle? A faire des sourires, à financer des projets, à “éduquer” des jeunes, etc…
    par exemple :
    Les dites “révolutions arabes” ont dévoilé l’implication des USA à travers ce genre de “financements” et “d’éducation”. Beaucoup d’articles ont été écrits sur le sujet. Les américains n’ont rien inventé, ils ont juste développé un concept très ancien : “le cheval de Troie”.
    Et la force militaire? Elle demeure bien sur nécessaire parce qu’il y en aura toujours des “insensibles” aux sourires photogéniques et aux compliments diplomatiques.

    • Pandora

      Thanks for the vid. It reminded of a Facebook group entitled ‘I always wear sunglasses because the Sun never sets on the British Empire’. It was a hilarious group full of self-deprecating humour about the British empirialistic past. Don’t know if it still exists.

  14. okay, so i have 10/20 on the pro american movie scale. To my defense, i have higher movie standards now that i’m older and less ‘profane’. If we stick to the definition to know if wether or not we are por american, based on our stance on their foreign policies, we’ll see that very few algerians really are, mostly because of the palestinian issuse. As for the sudden american interest for Algeria, which is not that new, i guess we should all have crashed Hillary’s party. btw, MnarviDZ, what’s your answer to the survey?

  15. Mnarvi DZ,
    You have to write another post to summarize the results of this one:).
    So it looks like only Oum Elkheir and I are anti-American. The others are either sitting on the fence or pro-American.
    America has given us the internet, freedom of speech, liberalism, also democarcy (it looks like it was not the Geeks that invented the principles of democracy after all). It has also given us a new version of capitalism that is ruling the world. America has also given us nuclear technology, trips to space, NASA, hollywood, it’s the land of the free and the home of the brave. It is the home of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, of Rockefeller and JFK, of George Washington and Teddy Roosevelt. It is the hand that was extended to Europe to help it stand on it feet after the second world war.
    It is also the hand that Obama extended to the Arabs in his famous inauguration speech. How could we be anti-American and bite that very same hand that is feeding us?

    • Pandora,

      from what i read on the comments, Algerianna is pro-american cause she finds their democratic institutions and beliefs very remarquable, and i assume you do as well, unless you live in North Korea and don’t feel the need to grab a burger once in a while. You are anti-american cause you dislike the american way of life, their individualism, consumerism and perverted capitalism and i doubt any raisonnable algerian would show sympathy to these ideas. No one is okay with their diplomatic choices and policies toward other countries. Maybe our points of view are not that much divergent. Even if it’s hard to make a stand (thats why i hate ‘les QCM’ and find them stupid) i guess if anti-americanism is the primary and savage hatred of anything american, well c’est pas mon délire, as they say in France. And if being sensitive to some of their cultural influence is considered as a pro american belonging proof, i guess i’m guilty.

      • Ya El7arrag, maintenant que tu es plus vieux et que tu as des critères plus sérieux de choix de tes films, est-ce que je peux te demander si tu as vu le film que j’ai mis en lien plus haut?
        C’est un film documentaire à voir absolument. La démocratie américaine, oui, disons qu’elle existe… relativement… elle est surtout intérieure ou plutôt domestique. Mais dès qu’elle touche à l’extérieur et aux intérêts des vrais “puissants” américains, mille et une ruse sont utilisées pour la contourner. Si les américains eux-mêmes commencent à douter de “leur” démocratie, et à le dire ouvertement, comment pouvons-nous, nous, y croire?
        @ Pandora : au moins on est deux, qallek yed wahda ma t’ssefeq 🙂
        Mais tu sais même la démocratie grecque avait ses limites et ne ressemblait pas beaucoup à cette conception de la démocratie d’aujourd’hui…

        • Oumelkheir,

          Thanks for the link. i knew the movie, read some articles about it but never had the chance to actually watch it. Promise, i will. your comment made me remember a very interesting article i read on Le Monde some time ago: les états unis un pays ingouvernable? was its title, i think. The guy questioned the efficiency of their institutions and added maybe they are too democratic, refering to the fierce opposition of the republicans to Obamas reforms (health policy, rise of their debts limit… ). He mentioned the freaking huge power of finance and banks in the US and the fact that executive power’s overwhelmed when billion dollars transactions are made in seconds and president decisions have to be approved by the Congress in weeks or months. Anyway, like i said before, no one is denying their contradictions, and i most certainly dont agree with their foreign policy. I just wanted to narrow a bit the meaning of anti-americanism.

  16. Many comments to go through! Few points:

    I think El7arrag and The Matrix are right when they ask what is meant by ‘Pro-Americanism’. To me being anti- or pro- a country on an ‘individual’ level is not really worthy of debate because everybody is entitled to their opinion. So I look at the whole thing on a system-based approach – the entire US system and how it compares with other big players, what alternatives we have, are they viable and if not is there a clear strategy how to improve them? How does the US imperialistic behaviour (which is natural being the superpower it is) compare with other imperialistic ideologies? To me, the US comes out the least bad when we consider all the above. Also considering how relatively young it is as a ‘nation’, the rich history, how they came to terms with the worst bits or are still working towards coming to terms with it, how they embrace opportunities. Their spirit of free enterprise, initiative. Heck patriotism even! Much to admire, precisely because it is everything we lack and everything we need! We see nothing of that, we just see consumerism, fashion and Hollywood, promiscuity and women in bikinis. Irak and Palestine, Afghanistan and Hilary. The Shia threat! The World Trade Center a conspiracy by the Jews. Blab la bla. Yes and? What does it have to do with us, Algerians?

    There is also another perspective which I find worthy of contemplation when trying to answer MnarviDZ question: the socio-cultural or psychological profiles of ‘nations’ who are predominantly anti-US or for whom anti-Americanism is a part of who they are, their sense of identity. But this is a complex question. So Pandora, when I spoke about ‘resentment’, I certainly didn’t mean individuals per se (what would be the point? yakhabtou ras’hom fel hit and the US or China will provide the first aid products lol), but the core message that is expressed in cultural outputs from these nations and which capture the approval of ordinary people. And as I said, it is not about idealizing the US or taking them for do-no-harm angels (there is a lot of that too and it is not good), it is about rejecting completely the “US are an evil Satan” argument which is prevalent in our part of the World. Because it serves no purpose at all. Criticizing the US has no importance in the grand scheme of things, unless it is criticism which helps us as nations progress and evolve. In fact, criticism only serves the US as long as they keep their culture of free expression and self-criticism. The day they will give it up, they will start declining. They show no sign of doing that at present. Good for them.

    • In fact, criticism only serves the US as long as they keep their culture of free expression and self-criticism. The day they will give it up, they will start declining. They show no sign of doing that at present. Good for them.

      Good point Algerianna…
      France, for example, as a nation, has been for a long time unable to have a critical review of its history in Algeria and it is still, the americans did Apocalypse Now few years after Viet-Nam war ended… This is about their actions outside but both french and americans consider the internal questions of their society in a very critical manner… I am fascinated by the ability of americans to annouce periodically their own decline… while they are still there.
      We are, as societies, unable to have a serious look at the deep reasons of our inability to build a modern and viable society… a pitiful way to escape this sad reality if to find consolation in reading or wathching their self-criticism…

  17. Oumelkhir

    I take your point about barbarians, it is true that it is colonialist powers who have invented this word, so yes it is a label, but so is the word ‘terrorist’ and this is why I put it between brackets. ‘Terrorists’ have labelled their victims ‘barbarians’ and ‘Barbarians’ label their bullies ‘Terrorists’. It’s all about psychology. Whatever the reasons, we don’t have enough information about ‘barbarians’ to be able to predict how they would have behaved had they been in the ‘Terrorists’ shoes [we had a glimpse recently but let us not digress].

    So I don’t know where this argument is going. But I know that we are all human. And so I found it interesting that you speak on behalf of ‘barbarians’ and say they had families etc, as if Americans don’t have families, as if they’re monsters or something. They too are people. And I happen to think that they have shown restraint compared to the power they have and the fact that they were pretty much the only superpower in the World for decades. Absolute power corrupts all humans, clearly there’s something about the American system that somehow puts safety valves on this tendency. The evidence is that we see now emerging nations who have made it in relatively brief time spans. Of course it has a lot to do with the culture of these nations as well, but it also shows that the US are nowhere as evil as they’re made out to be.

    In fact, I don’t really get your argument. It seems you take issue with people dying. I understand and it pains me too, but I accept it is life, a constant struggle for survival and power. But if it is that the US are terribly evil folks animated by apocalyptic intentions, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. As I said above, everyone is entitled to their personal opinion.

    As for democracy being a sham, in the sense you say things and the line of argument you use, the inevitable conclusion is everything is a sham! It’s a tautology! The reality is, it is all a question of degrees and nuances.

  18. I knew that “Are you pro-American?” wouldn’t lead to the binary (yes/no) answer plus a “wesh dakhlek” but I didn’t expect it to generate all these comments. So, Pandora, I am sorry I am not going to make a summary post, and El7arrag did some of the job anyways; thanks mate!

    But as I read all the comments I see you (we) all agree on American foreign policy. Whether we like their culture, their food, their consumerism, etc. is anecdotal to this debate in my opinion.

    The disagreements we see above are more related to our country, our way of life, our culture, our situation. Whenever someone says they do or do not like this or that in America it actually means they do not or do like this or that in Algeria/the Arab World/the Oumma/the 3rd world.

    To answer El7arrag, I don’t give a monkey about the US. I am neither pro nor anti-US. There are of course things I dislike about their government’s actions but then if we all agree on it why are we not acting to change things, to make the US position less predominant and ours more important. And this brings me to my earlier point.
    So perhaps if we agree that our disagreements have actually nothing to do with the US, and decide to address them in a serene, realistic and serious manner, perhaps we’ll improve our own situation. Perhaps we’ll encourage more countries to stand by our side. Perhaps we’ll change the US and the world at the same time.

  19. Algerianna, je n’ai à aucun moment parlé des USA comme du “diable”. Ou alors, je ne m’en souviens pas… Mais, c’est une expression chère aux américains eux-mêmes. C’est eux qui parlent de Bien et de Mal. Et c’est en rapport avec Barbares aussi. Les “civilisés” d’hier aussi diabolisaient les peuples qu’ils voulaient envahir (c’est ce que nous étions à une époque) et qu’ils comptaient bien civiliser. Les crimes commis dans les colonies européennes ou bien pour l’édification de cette grande nation que tu dépeint (les USA) a couté des milliers, des centaines de milliers et des millions de vies humaines. Une histoire qu’ils n’aiment pas trop raconter. D’où leur utilisation excessive (massive) du cinéma à des fins de propagande. Hollywood c’est eux qui l’utilisent c’est pas nous. Et s’il ne s’agissait pas de vies humaines et de sang, de quoi parlerait-on alors?
    Je ne suis pas une naïve, et je ne suis pas une “pacifiste” dans le sens idéaliste du terme. Je conçois que la guerre peut même parfois s’avérer nécessaire, inévitable… Je sais bien que c’est ainsi que va l’Histoire, et que les Empires naissent et déclinent, que les plus forts dominent, etc…. Mais, il fut un temps béni, où les guerres se faisaient entre “armées”. Où les femmes et les enfants étaient épargnés. Et les barbares étaient justement ceux qui transgressaient les codes d’honneur, ou les regles de la guerre. Tout comme le font aujourd’hui les américains et consorts quand ils s’en vont libérer un peuple au nom de la démocratie… y a pas à dire, ils le libèrent définitivement.
    Si on peut être d’accord sur le fait qu’ils soient les plus forts “militairement”, est-ce que cela signifie qu’on doive accepter (ou approuver) leur politique guerrière? leurs crimes? On peut s’opposer ya loukan bi al qalb?
    Ceci dit, et puisque selon toi : “In fact, criticism only serves the US as long as they keep their culture of free expression and self-criticism. The day they will give it up, they will start declining. They show no sign of doing that at present. ” Je te conseille de voir War made easy, si tu ne l’as pas déjà vu….

    • Hada el marikan yaaaa Oumelkheir raki qalta. Meyyez meyyez meyyez! Hada Big Mac, aw hada Mac Book and hada coukay dhek! El marikan assi, min el massayib elkoubra!

      On a more serious note, the point you made about ‘marketing’ and caring about international image: I think it is a very important point but not in the way you presented it. What is far more serious and relevant to us, the issue which needs our immediate attention are those who kill their own, not giving a monkey’s about what thier image in the eyes of the World. And they want to remain closed to the scrutiny of the international community as well as their own. During the Iraq war, when the incident of Abu Ghraib happened, everyone was accusing the Big Satan that is the US. But the point is how they dealt with it. This is what makes all the difference in my opinion. So to say that caring about one’s international image is hypocritical is misguided. It is this which makes human play by the rules and when one doesn’t care about their image, well when they have so much power they become very dangerous. So to me Arab rulers are more terrorist/ barbarian than the US. And again, I am talking based on evidence, not wishful thinking.

      I am not saying you support Arab rulers – this is just an example to illustrate why caring about one’s image is actually a good thing. It is only hypocritical in the way being polite is hypocritical too.

      • Mais le résultat est le même ya Algerianna… au contraire (et à mon humble avis ) la pilule s’avère plus dure à avaler quand elle vient justement de “prétendus” (en fait auto-proclamés), “défenseurs” de valeurs humanistes, et blablabli et blablabla…. loukan men 3and “les sauvages” (synonyme tardif de barbares) ma3lich…. enqoulou : wach yeqder idjik men 3and les sauvages ghir la sauvagerie, n’est-ce pas?
        Et peut-être et pour revenir à la question de départ de ce post. Pour moi et à partir de cette question, il ne s’agit pas de “philosopher” sur l’Histoire, ni sur la “Démocratie”, ni sur un “idéal politique” en général ou en particulier. Cette question pour moi renvoie directement à une réalité. A une actualité. A la mienne d’actualité. Etre pro-américain pour moi signifie : approuver, ou pire, soutenir la politique “criminelle” actuelle des USA : bombardements massifs de populations civiles, appauvrissement des survivants, des conflits et des guerres en continue, la faim, le chaos… être pro-américain c’est approuver ce qui risque d’arriver et qui arrivera (selon toute vraisemblance)… leurs prétextes seront toujours valables, leurs histoires (boniments) fonctionneront toujours…
        Mais en fait, on pourrait plutôt poser une autre question. Puisque tu parles toi de démocratie et de liberté d’expression. Si les USA étaient une véritable démocratie où les règles de la démocratie étaient respectées, et que les choix de la politique intérieure et extérieure étaient le fait du peuple américain, que signifierait alors et dans ce cas être pro-américain ou anti américain?
        Pour ma part, je préfère croire que le “peuple” américain à moindre échelle c’est vrai est tout aussi “guidé” que les autres par ses dirigeants, car dans le cas contraire…..

    • MnarviDZ

      You got to admire the Amricans’ reactivity, I mean they just want to have a finger stuck in every pie! The Arab Spring happens and what do they do? They immediately take interest in ‘civil societies’ of Arab countries lol. Very clever. I bet it’s a way of doing market research. Meanwhile, I imagine what goes through the head of a typical Algerian youth when they see this, they’ll go look at him, so young aw yahder longli and already quelqu’un, bogosse, ghadi nehrag lel marikan. A7ay 3la algerian civil society a7ay lol

      • When I first saw this young man, I thought to myself, he looks like a Hollywood actor, another Leonardo DiCaprio. My instinct did not fail me; he has Hollywood blood in him. Apparently this Farrow is the son of Woody Allen and Mia Farrow, Annnnd he was the subject of a custody battle between the two.
        Had the Algerian civil society known about his father’s Jewish ancestry, would they have been so excited to share their problems with him?

        • Pandora, le petit a déclaré avoir coupé toute relation avec son père dit “naturel”, suite au scandale de sa relation avec la fille adoptive de sa femme (la vraie mère du petit). Sa soeur adoptive qui est devenue maintenant sa belle-mère (naturelle?). Et on s’étonne après que les ménagères américaines regardent des séries comme Santa-Barbara? Mais c’est la vie, la vraie!
          De toutes les manières, nous ne pouvons pas reprocher à Woody Allen ses origines “naturelles”, lui, qui n’est pas connu pour être un fervent supporter de l’état sioniste… Et de toutes les façons, le beau blond semble n’avoir aucun trait de ressemblance avec ce père pourtant dit “naturel”… Mais, quelle est la part du naturel dans cette histoire?

        • Pandora,

          Had the Algerian civil society known about his father’s Jewish ancestry, would they have been so excited to share their problems with him?

          I believe that if something should (would) have made those people more or less excited, then it should have been the fact Farrow’s American and an employee of the American administration. The fact his ancestry is Jewish has nothing to do here, unless we find out he acts upon this belonging. But as of today, he acts as Clinton’s special advisor.


          You lost me with all this not very natural concentration of the word “naturel”!

          I think you should watch this 🙂

    • Remarque “poeple” : c’est fou ce qu’il ressemble à sa mère 🙂
      Et tout aussi “people” : même si c’est pas de sa faute, sa vie familiale est l’anti-modèle arabo/musulman par excellence. Mais bon….
      En fait, je suis revenue ici pour vous poster cette vidéo. Je n’ai pas encore tout vu, j’en suis encore à la 9ème minute (connexion :-/) sinon je pense que ça colle très bien à ta vidéo Manrvi parce qu’elle présente l’autre visage de l’Marikane…

      • Oumelkheir

        Thanks for the vid. It is well known that the American version of cut-throat capitalism generates many social problems. It especially attracts the attention of die-hard socialists such as Algerians 🙂 In America, you are either talented and you work hard, or you starve. In Algeria, nobody starves, no matter how useless and incompetent they are. Sometimes I am not sure if this is as good a thing as we think it is. Both are extremes, a more middle of the road alternative which would keep the positives of each would be great but am not aware of any model in existence right now which manages this, appart from the Scandinavian model which I sometimes read is quite successful but I don’t know enough about it to be able to judge. Anyway, that is another topic altogether.

        • Ya Algerianna, le documentaire a été fait par la BBC… et c’était en rapport avec le “beau blond” (tiens il ressemble à Mouhaned :-))) qui est venu parler à la jeunesse et transmettre son message (de notre jeunesse) à son administration pour qu’elle lui règle ses problèmes (à notre jeunesse :-)))… ya3ni loukan yessebqou b’leur jeunesse machi khir…. non, ils pensent d’abord aux autres, les généreux.
          Kima iqoul lem’thel : elli ma fih’ch el khir el’nassou ma fihch el khir lelberrani (ou quelque chose dans ce sens).
          Quand au modèle, pourquoi aller chercher ailleurs ce que nous avons déjà? Ne sommes-nous pas musulmans? Ne nous déclarons-nous pas musulmans? Wella musulmans bel ‘assem bark… Le modèle existe, mais personne n’est prêt à l’appliquer. Tu sais pourquoi? Parce qu’il bannit l’usure (l’intérêt banquaire), il bannit la corruption, il impose la rigueur et l’équité en amont avant l’aval, etc….
          Lorsque ce modèle était appliqué à la lettre par les gouvernants musulmans, il fût même un temps où Omar ibn Abdelaziz (le Calife Omeyyade) n’a trouvé personne pour prendre la zakat. Personne! Dans l’immensité de l’Etat musulman de l’époque, il n’a pas trouver à qui donner la zakat. Tu noteras aussi que les gens qui n’avaient pas droit à la zakat n’ont pas fait de fausses déclarations pour l’obtenir.

        • I think that the American version of capitalism is loathed everywhere not just in third world socialist countries. No one wants to have a healthcare system like the one in the US. It is not about being talented and hard-working or lazy; it is about having a system that protects the sick, and the misfortunate in this world.
          The Scandinavian system works because the rich are taxed so much to sustain the poor. Rich Americans would not do that.

        • True yes Pandora, but it still has its supporters – the free-marketeers and those who claim that a free market is self-regulating, the ideology is still quite strong even though the recent blows have done much to shake the ordinary people’s perception. I don’t think anyone has a clue about economics, expert economists included! Some new paradigm is needed I think.

  20. I’m Pro Pro ALGERIAN

    I received the famous invitation but I didn’t put my feet at the US embassy last saturday, merely because I strongly believe that algerians working to make changes in our country don’t need for an approval especially from a foreign politician-We algerien don’t need to wash our dirty linen in public-

    Those people nicely smiling on the picture aren’t pro american most of them were kinda looking for prestige of being close to tata Hillary that’s all .but I’m pretty sure that they didn’t expect the “marketing” action behind this innocent photo, Uncle Sam’s policy is very strong in selling everything even wars…but our country is not for sale.

    MnaviDZ and Algerianna we need patriots like you nice blog by the way 🙂

    Farasha mina al jazeera

    • Thanks Farasha and welcome!

      Oh I wouldn’t call myself a ‘patriot’, I wish I could do more for my country but I have a tendency to get discouraged easily unfortunately. I couldn’t find your blog to return your compliment though.

  21. @Mnarvi : au sujet de la vidéo de “Bonjour d’Algérie”, j’ai suivi ce matin le lien d’un tweet qui est ci-dessous sur votre page 😉
    Ma connexion ne me permet pas de visionner beaucoup de vidéos… il m’a fallu presque une journée pour voir les 29 minutes du reportage de la BBC, et relativement, la vidéo était plus facile à charger que celles de l’US Embassy qui sont beaucoup plus lentes…
    Mais, j’ai pu quand même voir les deux premières minutes, je crois… jusqu’au moment, où le débat commence, et juste après les propos “élogieux” de l’animatrice, qui le présente comme un “génie”. C’est vrai j’ai lu ça à propos de lui ces derniers jours sur des papiers “américains”… mais de là à en faire cette grosse tartine, sur la télé “algérienne”, j’ai trouvé ça grotesque. On dirait qu’elle présentait un enfant du pays, inventeur, technicien, prodige dans son domaine (et il y en a!)… que sais-je? mais algérien! Ce jeune et beau Monsieur n’est pas là en son nom “propre”. Il n’est pas là à titre individuel ou personnel, il est là en représentant de l’administration US.
    Je suis sure qu’il doit être très compétent, et qu’il doit être aussi brillant qu’on le dit, mais… tefrah bih yemmah, wach n’dirlou ana? :-)))

    • Je vois qu’on s’est compris car c’etait pour cela que je vous ai propose la video 🙂
      Les 24 minutes de la sequence etaient les 2 minutes que tu as vues multipiliees par 12. Elle etait tombee sous le charme, on le lui pardonne en cette veille de journee internationale de la femme 😉

      PS: Bon courage avec la connexion. Moi personnellement quand je suis en Algerie je ne fais rien d’autre sur internet que la consultation de mes emails. Je n’ai pas assez de patience pour voir une video se charger, une page se charger ou meme ecrire un post…

  22. Mnarvi,
    My point may have been lost in my sarcasm. I meant that Algerians loathe the Jews so much, and like conspiracy theories, that a mention of any connection between Jewish and Algeria would spark their anger. I am not aware of many places, other than Algeria, where “yhoudi” is an insult.

    • Elkhabar has always been flagged by the US as an anti-Semitic newspaper 🙂
      I got your point and my comment was there just to call for your above clarification. I think a fair number of Algerians are ok when the Jews visit the country using their respective passports and do not bring their religion up.

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